March 7, 2024

Dreaming in Color: Michael Tubbs

Episode Notes

In this episode, we welcome Michael Tubbs, who at the age of 26 became the youngest mayor of any major city in American history when he took the helm of his hometown of Stockton, California. Tubbs is the founder of End Poverty in California, which works to eradicate poverty by elevating the voices of people experiencing it and the data-driven policies shown to work. He is also the founder of Mayors for a Guaranteed Income, a Rosenburg Foundation Senior Fellow, and serves as special advisor on economic mobility to California Governor Gavin Newsom.

Join this conversation as Michael takes us on a journey toward shared prosperity. He talks about how he found his calling as a public servant, the importance of storytelling in public policy, and the world he's building.


Episode Transcript

Christian Celeste Tate (00:01):

Welcome to Dreaming in Color, a space for social change leaders of color to reflect on how their life experiences, personal and professional, have prepared them to lead and drive the impact we all seek. I'm Christian Celeste Tate, and I invite you to join me in these candid, kitchen table conversations, where together we celebrate these leaders' ingenuity, are inspired by their wisdom, and learn how collectively we can all strive to do and be better. This is Dreaming in Color.


Today I'm sitting down with the Honorable Michael Tubbs. At the age of 26 Michael Tubbs became the youngest mayor of any major city in American history when he took the helm of his hometown, Stockton, California. As mayor Tubbs was lauded for his leadership and innovation. Under his stewardship, Stockton saw a 40 percent drop in homicides in 2018 and 2019. It led the State of California in the decline of officer-involved shootings in 2019, and was named the second most physically healthy city in California, and one of the top fiscally healthy cities in the nation.


Mayor Tubbs is also the founder of End Poverty in California, or EPIC, which works to eradicate poverty by elevating the voices of people experiencing it, and the data-driven policies that have been shown to work. Mayor Tubbs also serves as the special advisor to the governor of California for Economic Mobility. He's been on Fortune's 40 Under 40, Forbes 30 Under 30, All-Star Alumni, and was named most valuable mayor by the nation. In case all that wasn't enough, he's also the author of The Deeper the Roots: A Memoir of Hope and Home.


If you've not already read the book, I want you to put your shoes on, head to the bookstore, and listen to this podcast on your way. I'm so excited to be speaking with Mayor Tubbs today, and I invite y'all to join the conversation. Mayor Tubbs, you spoke for Bridgespan virtually, I think, at the end of 2022. A lot of the perspective that you shared in that conversation really stuck with me on a personal level, let alone a professional one, so I'm just feeling very blessed to have you on the podcast.

Michael Tubbs (02:03):

Oh, the pleasure is mine. Thanks for having me.

Christian Celeste Tate (02:05):

Why don't I kick it over to you to share an invocation?

Michael Tubbs (02:07):

Yesterday my good friend, the state rep in Arizona, he texts me. He's like, "We're voting on a bill, like they're trying to ban local cities from doing guaranteed income in Arizona." Week before that it was Iowa. Last year, Wisconsin, South Dakota. It's like a really coordinated effort. And Monday, February 12th, I was in DC with some of the leaders in counties for a guaranteed income, and we were talking about this. And I was reminded of one of my favorite scriptures in the Bible, where the Prophet Elisha, his house was surrounded by sort of hostile people who were against sort of what he was doing, et cetera.


And his friends, his colleagues came to him very stressed. And then he said, "Fear not, for there are more with us than are with them." God, or, or some people may say the universe had angels and other things helping to continue the, the fight in progress. So that's really been sticking with me this week, that despite sort of opposition, despite what looks like a lot of people are against, I know actually there's more people with you when you're doing the work of justice than are against you, even if it doesn't feel that way.

Christian Celeste Tate (03:07):

Yeah, I love that. And it reminds me of something we've thought a lot about here, which is the idea that it's not always clear what winning looks like. You know, when you're doing the work of justice and doing the work of equity, it can often feel like you're losing 'cause those fighting against you are, are quite vocal and quite visible, but you might be winning that fight even if it's just not clear to you in the moment.

Michael Tubbs (03:26):


Christian Celeste Tate (03:27):

How have you kept sight of that in your day to day? 'Cause I ha- I know the, the opposition you come up against is big in there and it's out there.

Michael Tubbs (03:33):

It's tough, right? But I've learned to really sort of hone in on the little things. In the case of the guaranteed income work, maybe it's meeting a recipient or traveling to a city and doing a conversation with the mayor and hearing from people directly impacted, or maybe it's hearing from a, a college student. Like this morning, I did a podcast with sixth graders who are doing research on child neglect. Sometimes it's bigger, like we just got some really good polling data that really surpassed even my expectations about the level of support for these things. Or it's my son saying, "Daddy, I like the fact that you help people. Or, Daddy, I like the fact that you're trying to help give people money." It's like little things like that that keep me grounded, uh, as well as sort of big sei- seismic wins.

Christian Celeste Tate (04:14):

Yeah, and, and those seem really important 'cause they, they seem to be all about telling the story of the work. It pulls me back to a quote that really stuck with me from your book, actually, about how storytelling is how we make sense of the world as it is, and it's how we gain the vision and courage to create the world as it should be. And I thought that was just a really powerful message and it seems to play into these dynamics that you're talking about. Curious to hear more about how you think of narrative change and storytelling as being central in the work that you do?

Michael Tubbs (04:43):

I'm convinced that narrative change and storytelling is really the fuel that, that brings about any real change, particularly because America was founded on this myth of meritocracy, this, this myth of, of a land of opportunity, which is a good aspirational goal, right? But it just has never been that for everybody at least. And we have organized ourselves, our institutions, our expectations of each other, and our laws based off those stories.


And part of the reason why I started End Poverty in California was because when I was serving as mayor in Stockton, I'm a nerd. So people thought I was just doing things just to be radical, but it was just stuff based off data. And I think it's an indictment in and of itself that acting in a data-informed way in our s- society built on myths and storytelling is actually radical.

Christian Celeste Tate (05:27):

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Michael Tubbs (05:29):

Like, (laughs), like, it's, it's radical to say we don't have to lock everyone up. That if we looked at the folks who are most likely to be impacted by gun violence and talked to them before they shot, we could actually make the community safer. And that was radical. It was radical to say, "You know what, folks don't have money."

Christian Celeste Tate (05:42):


Michael Tubbs (05:43):

"Um, not because they're dumb or lazy, but because they don't have money." If we give them a little bit more money, it unlocks a whole world of opportunity, which is where the, the thesis around guaranteed income. Or it was radical to say that South Stockton, where I was born, didn't have worse health outcomes 'cause people were making unhealthier choices. It had worse health outcomes and a shorter life expectancy because the city planted less trees, because all the toxins and pollutants and trucks and warehouses were in that neighborhood. So to answer your question, I'm just obsessed with this idea of storytelling, because if our world operated... if our country operated based off data, almost everything we do would be different from how we educate to how we work.


Like, like, literally we do the opposite of data. And what we do is operate based off these myths and these stories that come from popular culture, that come from religion, that come from myth-making in our history. And we say that, "Hey, in America, if you work hard, you can be successful." And the thing about the stories that... the dominant narratives, I should say, that are told is that they're not 100% false. Like, I'm an example of, yes, in my case, working very hard allowed me to achieve some measure of success. But it's also true that working hard alone is not enough, 'cause the hardest working people in our society make the least.


So I've just been obsessed with this idea that, "I, I can't really have a policy discussion with you unless I change the story, because I can't talk to you about guaranteed income if you come from a view that people are strictly poor because of how hard they work or how much ability they have." Before I can even get to giving money, we have to have a conversation around, "How is that not true in all cases and, and look at your life and look at your family, et cetera?" Um, so, yeah, so since being mayor, I've been spending a lot of time on storytelling with End Poverty in California, with Mayors for Guaranteed Income, and both organizations we produce documentaries, one focused on poverty and, and power building in California, and one focused on all the recipients and all these guaranteed income programs and premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival, et cetera.


And we've done the writers' room tour where we sat with writers and producers and showrunners to talk about, "Okay, how are we depicting poverty? Like, what's the story we're telling with the characters and the choices they're making?" These stories are pervasive, not because they're incredibly powerful and that they can't change, but because they're not challenged. Like seven years ago, the idea of giving people money in this country? No way. Just seven years later, there's 60 pilots passing across this country using government dollars. We have HUD looking at, "Okay, instead of Section 8 vouchers, what if we gave cash?" We have sort of the child tax credit, giving parents money just for having children, to help them with their children. Being one of the most popular pieces of legislation passed in the last generation.


The paradigm has shifted, but it's only shifted because we dared to challenge the story that people were struggling because they weren't working hard or people were struggling because they were lazy. I think that's the work of justice folks is actually just changing the story, 'cause once we change the story of how it came to be, then we're able to make sense of why the world is the way it is to the point of your question, but also articulate a vision for what the world can be.

Christian Celeste Tate (08:50):

These changes that you're talking about are radical, but they're also simple, right? They're also rooted in the reality of the world we live in. They're also rooted in the data we have about the world that we live in. As you know, the theme of our season is reimagining our world and focusing on conversations with those normalizing what was once considered to be radical social change, right? 'Cause these changes you're talking about, in some senses, they're radical, but in other senses, they're common sense. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how you get people to see them as common sense, and how do you override a narrative that's been around for centuries with one, even if you have common sense on your side.

Michael Tubbs (09:29):

It's an iterative process and still learning and trying, but if I was to distill it into a couple of principles is that one, I try to make a macro narrative as micro as possible in talking with people. For example, this myth of exceptionalism, this myth that if you put yourself up by your bootstraps, you'll be fine, which is a very alluring myth, particularly for folks who don't wanna change anything, "'Cause it's not up to me, you need to work hard," and particularly for people who actually are successful in, in spite of structural barriers. Like, "Look at me. I'm so special. I'm the one rose that grew from concrete. None of the other roses grew, but that's their fault."


And that's why I wrote my book, um, The Deeper the Roots, to really sort of challenge exceptionalism. I think particularly in politics, you get elected because you myth make, you tell the story of a born in this amazing land of opportunity, et cetera, et cetera, which is partly true. But I wanted my book to trouble that a little bit. I wanna talk very directly about my own experiences and how exceptionalism isn't the right story. The, the right story is one of those structural barriers. The right story is the tragedy that so many people I grew up with, so many people in my community didn't have the chance to reach their potential, and the only delta was not working hard. Like, like, there was (laughs)... there were a bunch of other things that we shouldn't live in a society that success is predicated by luck or by being one in a million.


Number two, I think it takes being curious, right? It, it, it takes sort of just asking, "Why? Are, are we sure that's true?" So it's not positing, "I have the answer," but it is positing that, "I'm not sure this answer is correct, or I'm not sure this is the complete story." And the scariest part is you just have to do it. I remember my first interview when we announced we're doing the guaranteed income program, I was 27 years old. I know nothing. I'm being challenged by these Nobel Laureate economists, political leaders, like the then-vice president. Very important people (laughs) like, who have been doing this for a long time.


And they were saying, "Oh, this incentivizes the dignity of work." And I was like, "With all due respect, I just don't see anyone quitting working for $500 a month. I just don't see how that's enough money." $5,000 a month. They'll be dumb not to quit. Like, why would you st- If you, if you only make $40K, you get $5,000 a month. No, you shouldn't work, do something else. But $500, that's not gonna make anyone quit working. And I was like, "B. this idea of dignity being attached to work just seems so primitive to me." And I was like, "Well, wait, like, don't we wanna live in a society where like our dignity is attached to our humanity first, and then we go to work and then our work treats us like dignified human beings?"


"Because we keep saying dignity is attached to work, but then people go to work and work in undignified conditions, like no unions, terrible hours, no sick time off, no paid leave, et cetera, et cetera." And the first time I said it, it felt very scary, like, "What if I'm wrong?" But no one had a real rebuttal. And since then, I have not been able to shut up on a variety of issues, 'cause, 'cause I just think... And I think particularly for young people, particularly for people of color or women, other minorities or marginalized groups, you grow up thinking that the world is the way it is because very smart people figured this out as optimal in the best and you're spending all your energy trying to make it in the status quo that you don't really have the energy or time to really interrogate and say, "Hmm, really?"

Christian Celeste Tate (12:40):


Michael Tubbs (12:41):

But I think once you do that you recognize that, "Oh, no, like the people who built our Constitution were smart." They're also slave owners. They weren't moral people. They weren't the moral authority of the... Like they were often patriarchal.

Christian Celeste (12:54):


Michael Tubbs (12:55):

Many were rapists, many were human traffickers, like just terrible people in some cases, right? I think once you recognize that, that the world we live in is the product of someone else's imagination, that may be your current nightmare, then I think it gives you courage to say, "No, like, how do we create something different and something better and something more in line with what we know to be true or what, what we know should be true?"

Christian Celeste Tate (13:16):

What I love about what you're saying is the, the role of agency, right? And I think one of the things that's so compelling about your story and the way that you show up in the world is the amount of agency that you have felt from such a young age to be a part of those conversations. And I think it's an extension of exceptionalism that tells people that, "The world was built by people smarter than me and it's somebody else's job or somebody else's power to go about changing it." And I'm curious from your... from the organizing that you've done, how do you get people to buy into their own agency to change the world?

Michael Tubbs (13:50):

I think I approach it two ways, right? The first way is a very sort of practical argument. The people who run things aren’t impacted by this, so there's no incentive for them to change it. Like, the only way change happens is if you do something 'cause that folks don't care, like they, they don't... The only way this changes is, is if you change it and even in your attempt to change it, you might not be successful. But I guarantee you this, if you do nothing, nothing's gonna change 'cause the folks who are in charge don't care about this issue the same way you do or don't understand the issue the same way you do. 'Cause that's what got me to get into politics. I realized that, "No, for the stuff I care about, me waiting for someone to change it is gonna take way longer than me trying to change it myself." I think that's the first thing.

Christian Celeste Tate (14:35):


Michael Tubbs (14:36):

And then number two, I think it's just breaking down the people. In most cases, not all cases, but in most cases, those folks aren't smarter than you. They're just... They're literally not. (laughs) Like, like, I think... And I say that often 'cause growing up I really thought that folks with money or folks with titles or folks in power had, like, some inherent like genius, like there was some... they, they know the right... they just know 'cause they have the job. But that's because we've been fed this myth of meritocracy.


Like, no, no, some people may have more access to information than you. You have to do the job to educate yourself and learn. But these folks ain't neces- and some might be. But everyone's not smarter than you. Like, your opinions and thoughts are valid, too. And I think now that I'm not in office, just giving concrete stories of meetings I've been in, being in the room where it happens. I think first lady Michelle Obama said this and was like, "Oh, my gosh, like I've been in every room you could imagine." (laughs) and most of the time, these people aren't that impressive. Like (laughs) most of these people aren't like Isaac Newton or Einstein.

Christian Celeste Tate (15:41):


Michael Tubbs (15:41):

Most of the time it's like, "Oh, really? I know more than you." Or-

Christian Celeste Tate (15:45):

"I know enough to speak up."

Michael Tubbs (15:47):

Yeah, or my favorite line is, "You can't be no worse than what we see on many things."

Christian Celeste Tate (15:52):


Michael Tubbs (15:52):

Like, (laughs) at the bare, 'cause that's when I was on city council as a 22-year-old. That was my mantra every day, 'cause the city was... had just declared bankruptcy. We had the highest per capita homicide rate in the country. And every day I would look in the mirror and be like, "We have some big challenges, but I know one thing to be sure, I am no worse than the status quo." (laughs) And that gave me a lot of confidence. I'm like, "Look, you can't get worse than this. We're at ground zero."

Christian Celeste Tate (16:15):


Michael Tubbs (16:15):

"So most things are gonna be up (laughs)."

Christian Celeste Tate (16:17):

Yeah, I really like that. And I think part of what I observe holding people back is the fear of failure that comes with speaking up. And that brings me back to something that you shared when you, when you spoke back in 2022 with Bridgespan about finding what you're willing to fail for and then pursuing that without regard for failure. And I would just love for you to speak on that a little bit, 'cause I found that to be so powerful.

Michael Tubbs (16:42):

After I lost re-election, it wasn't the first time I had been, like, rejected or had lost. I mean, that's part of life, but it was the first time in a while, frankly (laughs). And it was so public and it just felt so unjust 'cause of how we lost and why we lost and the way people, not just in Stockton, but like, um, Republicans across the country, like, like, were really excited, which I thought was weird. So I spent some time like praying and thinking and just being really upset.


But in a moment of clarity, I said, "Well, A, I'm 30 years old. So this is my... for most people, this is their ceiling. At 30 years old, this is my floor. Like (laughs) this is the foundation upon which the rest of my life will be built. Wow, what an awesome floor." And then I said, "Hmm. And the worst thing that could happen, happened. I lost." And it wasn't even close. It wasn't like I lost by 10 votes, (laughs) you know, I lost. And it was clear that I lost. There was no... I couldn't lie to myself and be like, "I, I... They counted the votes wrong. No, no, no, you, you lost, brother. So that's the worst that could happen, and I'm still here."

Christian Celeste Tate (17:56):


Michael Tubbs (17:56):

"And people still care what I have to say. And there's still work to be done." But then thirdly, I said, "Hey, man, I am so clear now what I'm willing to lose for, 'cause I've done it." It was very explicit. And that's been so freeing for me in terms of the choices I've made, the things I choose to do, et cetera. 'Cause it's clear to me sort of what my North Star is and what's willing... what I'm willing to take a risk for.


And I, and I think that's a metric of success, to be honest, because then you know sort of the filter through which you can make decisions, the filter in which you can take risks, the filters in which you can, uh, use to really understand that your purpose or what you're supposed to do is actually not tied to your position, that your position is a means to purpose, but your purpose is not your, your, your position.


So your position can change, oftentimes it will change particularly if you're trying change the status quo but your, but your purpose doesn't. Now, so, so, I, I think that was the biggest gift of losing actually was just getting you really clear, because no one asks you that. Everyone always asks you, "What are you willing to win for?"

Christian Celeste Tate (18:54):


Michael Tubbs (18:55):

But that's a different question than what you're willing to lose for, right? Like, now, what are you willing to win for requires a different set of choices. Like, when... But, "What am I willing to lose for, like, what am I willing to do or try even if I know I would fail?" That's a different... that level of conviction is different.

Christian Celeste Tate (19:15):

I find that to be so powerful. And it goes back to the conversation we were having earlier about everybody having a role to play in this work, right? And everybody just needing to find a lane where they fit in and being willing and empowered to run that lane as far as they can. Part of what I wanna do is try and paint a picture for our listeners about the world it is that you're building. You know, you're out here day after day for equity, for justice, eliminating poverty. Can you describe a world in the future in which you have met those goals and you've hit those marks? What does that world look like?

Michael Tubbs (19:49):

Yeah, we have glimpses of that world, like in our elite universities. Like I think for me, I think of Stanford. I remember I went home for my first break. It was Thanksgiving break. I went home and did a panel in my high school and they said, "What's the biggest difference between kind of Franklin High School in Southern California and Stanford? "And immediately I said, "There's no fights." Think about that. Like the fact that there was no violence was like just mind-blowing for me. 'Cause there are fights every day, but so I think safety, right? A place where people are safe.


At Stanford, there was no limit on where your ambition could take you. If you got an idea, there was resources to do it, right? Like, so  where your potential is met. A place where your basic needs are met. I remember telling people all the time, like, "Even if I don't like the dining hall food, I know it's there, I know what time it's there, and I know I'm gonna have enough." I remember my friends would be stressed. I'm like, "Y'all what are we stressed about? We're stressed about writing papers and reading books. And there's people I grew up with that are stressed about Pampers and bottles, like literally 19, 20-year-olds having to, like, provide for a child. And we're stressed about a three-page, five-page paper?"


So a place where your basic needs are met, a place where folks are able to try and, and reach their potential. And Stanford's not a perfect place. Let me move from that analogy, but also a world that treats everyone like how we treat some people. Like a world without a hierarchy of human value, where no matter what the race or the nationality or the religion, we view the life as sacred, where the killing of some people isn't more alarming than the killing of others, where the erasure of some people isn't more alarming than the erasure of others. But the place that we see everyone as equally human, a world of, of second chances, basically a world for everyone, like in every upper middle-class neighborhood. That's the world, like the same thing that most people that work at Bridgespan have. That's the world I'm trying to build for everyone.

Christian Celeste Tate (21:42):

Yeah, I love the way you, you shrug as you're answering that question, right? 'Cause again, it's in many ways radical and it's in many ways simple. It's really not that complicated. It's difficult to get there and it's a complicated path ahead of us, but it's not that complicated.

Michael Tubbs (21:55):

I think part of it is in part back to storytelling. One of the stories we tell ourselves is that other people don't deserve what we have. And again, I work incredibly hard. My wife works incredibly hard, but I don't think my kids deserve more. I think my kids deserve the world. I don't think just my kids deserve the world. Like, I don't get any joy in the fact that my kids are gonna have more opportunity than others. And I fight every day to change that. But, like, I think so many people have internalized this scarcity mindset ...

Christian Celeste Tate (22:25):


Michael Tubbs (22:26):

... where, "I want what's good for me, but it doesn't bother me when other people don't have it as good, or I don't believe other people deserve to have it as good." And it feels radical in some ways to your point but also feels very not. Like, I want all kids to go to a great preschool like my kids go to. I want all kids to know that they have a place to sleep, all humans have a place to go home and lay their heads at night. I want all people to eat. Not luxuries, but necessities, that's the world I'm fighting for. And some of them might critique me for this, but I'm not even concerned about ceilings. Like, I'm not trying to, like, cap anything, before you even get there, let's just make sure everyone has a floor. Like, I don't wanna even talk about ceilings until everyone gets a floor.

Christian Celeste Tate (23:04):


Michael Tubbs (23:04):

Let's make sure everyone has a floor, and then we can talk about how high it goes. But, like, right now we live in a world where some people have 10 houses and some people have none. That's wild to me. I think that's actually very radical, the fact that some people... 'cause you're only one person. Some people have 10 houses, some people have none. Really? Some people have top schools and tutors, and some people have teachers that aren't credentialed, in the same city, 10 minutes away from each other. That's crazy. So I think you can actually have an argument about effort and innate ability, but we live in a very uncivilized society currently where everyone doesn't have their basic needs met. So before we talk about this other stuff, let's just fix that.

Christian Celeste Tate (23:44):

Mayor Tubbs, I could sit here and talk to you for hours more, but I wanna be respectful of your time. Let's go into these rapid fire questions. First question is what's something that is considered radical but shouldn't be?

Michael Tubbs (23:54):

Ending poverty.

Christian Celeste Tate (23:56):

What's something that's bringing you joy currently?

Michael Tubbs (23:58):

My kids.

Christian Celeste Tate (23:59):

Best rapper of all time?

Michael Tubbs (24:01):

Pac. Yeah, Pac, let's go with Pac.

Christian Celeste Tate (24:03):

That was the first one that had you thinking. You dropped the J. Cole reference in your book. I was kinda hoping you were gonna give that one to Cole. Who's an artist you have on repeat now?

Michael Tubbs (24:10):

I'm very basic, so like Cole or Drake.

Christian Celeste Tate (24:12):

What's your go-to hype song?

Michael Tubbs (24:14):

Go-to hype song, man. Oh, Dreams and Nightmares, I think. Yeah, Dreams and Nightmares as I'm trying to get really hype for something.

Christian Celeste Tate (24:19):

And last question is, what are you dreaming of?

Michael Tubbs (24:22):

A better future for us all.

Christian Celeste (24:23):

Well, Mayor Tubbs, I can't thank you enough for joining us here. I'm inspired by you and I appreciate you a lot.

Michael Tubbs (24:28):

Thank you, brother. No, thanks for having me.

Christian Celeste Tate (24:30):

My conversation with Mayor Tubbs left me thinking about what it really means to reimagine our world. I believe that that work is first and foremost an exercise of imagination. In order to shed the systems that do not serve us, we must first build the community and the creativity to imagine systems that will. And once we've built that imagination, all it takes is the courage and the agency to see that the rest has always been up to us.


It brings me back to an Angela Davis quote, that, "Regimes of racial segregation were not disestablished because of the work of leaders and presidents and legislators, but rather because the fact that ordinary people adopted a critical stance in the way in which they perceived their relationship to reality." Social realities that appeared impenetrable came to be viewed as transformable and people learned how to imagine.


We have to learn how to imagine a world that is defined by abundance rather than scarcity, by community rather than individualism. If we wait to be led to a better future, we may never see it because that work doesn't start in congressional chambers or smoke-filled rooms. It starts at the kitchen table of ordinary people daring to believe, daring to imagine, to inspire.


Thanks for listening to Dreaming in Color. A special shout out to the folks who make it happen. Our wonderful show producer, Denise Savas, our creative director, Ami Diané, our video editors Jenny Liu, Steven Chaya, and Dave Clark McCoy, our graphic designer, Diana Jimenez, our audio engineer, Teresa Buchanan, and a huge shout out to our ever brilliant Bridgespan production team, Darren Isom, Cora Daniels, Christina Pistorius, and Ryan Wenzel. What a squad, y'all. Be sure to rate, subscribe, and review wherever you listen to podcasts. Catch you next time.

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