Episode Notes:
A future where technology reflects community, culture, and justice doesn’t happen by accident but through intention and imagination. We sit down at LA Tech Week with Ebele Okobi, principal at Revolutionary Projects; Afua Bruce, founder and CEO at ANB Advisory Group; and Will Drewery, founder and CEO at Diagon Technologies. Together, they reflect on how identity, cultural intelligence, and lived experience inform the way they understand and reimagine technology. Alana Cheeks-Lomax and Gary Johnson, co-founders at UNTOLD kick things off and close us out.
Transcript
Darren Isom:
Welcome to Dreaming In Color Live, a special series within the Dreaming In Color Universe. If you know this show, you know it's built on a simple belief. The equitable future we seek requires celebrating the genius of today's leaders of color, creating space for them to share how their brilliance, lived experience, and imagination shape their work and their impact. Our one-on-one conversation will return later in 2026, but in this beautiful in-between time, we're excited to launch Dreaming In Color Live, a live conversation convening series of small rooms and shared tables where bold questions, creative spirits, and community, energy meet.
These gatherings bring together artists, funders, thinkers, and community builders to wrestle with some of the boldest questions of our time about culture and power, justice and belonging, technology and truth, place and possibility. And we do it in small rooms recorded in real time because history reminds us that great shifts often begin that way, in intimate spaces where people show up with honesty, courage, and curiosity.
Dining rooms and dinner tables have always been among those spaces, the small, sacred sites where ideas are tested, relationships are forged, and the world begins to move. Some folks call that gumbo diplomacy, understanding that sharing a meal can open hearts, stretch imagination, and build bridges policy could never do. Each Dreaming In Color Live event brings brilliant people together for a public conversation, and then a shared meal to explore how culture, story, and identity, and leadership shape a more just and more beautiful world.
The format is different, but the spirit is the same. Celebrating genius, engaging bold ideas, holding space for truth, and dreaming out loud together. Today's conversation comes to you from Los Angeles during Tech Week, a place where innovation, imagination, and culture collide. We gather an extraordinary group of leaders to explore what this moment in technology means for equity, creativity, and community.
You'll hear from Abel Kobe, the self-described tech refugee and the principle of revolutionary projects. Afua Bruce, a leading voice on technology and social impact and author of The Tech That Comes Next. And Will Drewery, founder and CEO of Diagon Technologies, dedicated to building solutions to society's greatest challenges. Once again, I'm your host, Darren Isom. Welcome to Dreaming In Color.
Alana Cheeks-Lomax:
So, I am so excited that Gary and I are hosting this event this evening. For those who had not had a chance to meet Alana Cheeks-Lomax, I am the CEO and co-founder of UNTOLD Impact with this amazing guy over here, Gary. And we're just excited to have you guys here today. For us as a company, we talk about UNTOlD and we say that we are social architects and social innovators, and that we are really building frameworks that are really changing how we think about inclusion, culture, and community. And for us, a lot of our work is rooted in what we call cultural intelligence. It's this idea that if you really understand the lived experience of people, and you understand community and culture and how that evolves, you're able to really build a world that looks very different than what we are experiencing today.
And prior to starting this company, I spent almost 18 years in corporate across nonprofits and management consulting and tech.
And throughout my time in these executive level roles, I was sitting in these rhythms as people were making decisions, sometimes not making good decisions, but they were making decisions about products and services and how they were being offered to communities and what they were building and what they were not building. And many times I was the only person that was speaking up from my community or helping executives and leaders understand how to think about underserved communities. So when we started UNTOLD, we said, "We're going to be different and we're going to be the leaders that are working for everyone."
And as we're sitting here today, it's also not lost on me, because we're going to have this amazing panel, that we are in a moment and a real inflection point around what's happening globally. There's a lot of stuff happening around us, whether it's geopolitical, whether culture, society, community again, but there's so much work to be done and we're excited about the work that we know that needs to be done.
And all of you were picked to be in this room today because we feel like you all are building something that is helping build a better future for all of us. So we're really excited to have you here today. We're really excited to actually have conversations. And as we talk about AI, one of the big things with AI is we know that's shaping a lot of things, but there's also a lot of conversations around who is involved in AI, right? Who is being a part of the conversation, who is being left behind, who is allowed to build with it, but also who is able to dream with it.
So, as you listen to the panel, you're going to hear some dynamic people talk about their experiences and their own opinions about this work. So, as we start to get into the conversation, there are two call-outs I want to give to the audience.
One of them being, as we think about the world that we want to build, how are each of you contributing to that world? And as I was chatting with people today, I'm hearing great things about some other tools people are building and the things that they're working on, which is really, really exciting. But I think we're in a really critical moment in time that requires each of us to think about how we're contributing to society, and hopefully, this conversation gets you guys encouraged. So, with that, I'm going to pass it on to Darren, who is our partner from the Bridgespan Group and our moderator for the panel this evening.
Darren Isom:
Thank you, Alana. That was lovely. And I have the easiest task of the night. I just have to facilitate a conversation with these brilliant folks. I was talking with my team. I'm coming down from Northern California, and I was joking that LA Blacks were my favorite. And with that, I love to start our various conversations with, I'm a New Orleans boy at heart, seventh-generation New Orleans native, was [inaudible 00:05:33] to Northern California, but I'd love to start with a bit of invocation as a bit of a tribute to my good Jesuit upbringing.
I'm not going to read the Bible, don't worry. This one is from Adrienne Maree Brown. The future is not something we answer. The future is something we create. And when we create it together, it becomes liberation. So with that as an opening thought, I'm going to jump into conversation, direct and straightforward these beautiful folks that I have here.
And this one is a round-robin, if you will. I'm going to start with you, Ebele. And ultimately, I would love for you to talk about how has your identity and also your lived experiences shape the way you imagine and engage with technology, AI, and the so-called Fourth Industrial Revolution.
Ebele Okobi
Sure.
Darren Isom:
Easy topic.
Ebele Okobi
Very easy. So, my name is Ebele Okobi. And so those of you in Nigerian will know that I'm Nigerian. And so I think the fact that I'm Nigerian and the fact that I'm an immigrant, as in my parents immigrated to the US, I grew up an immigrant and then I immigrated myself. I live in Europe now with kids, with my family, with my husband and my kids. And then I also was in tech. So I call myself a tech refugee. I was at Yahoo, and then at Facebook, and then at OpenAI. So I was in tech for a really long time. So, all of those experiences shape how I engaged with it.
And so just really quickly, what I think is interesting about when we're talking about the Fourth Industrial Revolution is the extent to which all of the industrial revolutions have been built on the blood and bones of Black people.
And so even though their conversation is around technology, it really has been rape, looting the theft of land that has made all of those things possible. And so when we talk about the Fourth Industrial Revolution, understanding that it is the exact same logics that underlie that this revolution has underlaid the rest of them.
Darren Isom:
Thank you. Thank you. Afua, I'm going to pass to you next. Same question.
Afua Bruce:
Yeah. Thanks so much for that provocative question that I'm still stalling a little bit to understand how to answer in the best way. My name is Afua Bruce. My family is from Ghana. My parents integrated to the US from Ghana. And so I think that upbringing, especially for Ghanaians and I think many West Africans at that time, the ways that you contribute to the world are through medicine, or being an engineer.
Luckily, I like technology, so I got to figure out ways to interview that way. But the other thing that was always really important is family and community, and how are you supporting your family? How are you supporting your community? So, I started off my career as an engineer in private sector at IBM, found my way to the FBI, and then to the White House, big turn, but also big turn that really made me see how much technology and policy affects our day-to-day lives, what we can access, what we can't access.
And that's really the orientation I bring to the work I do now as to how do we create technology that is going to let us access and live the lives that we want to live.
Darren Isom:
Thank you. Why don't you take what next?
Will Drewery:
All right. Hey, everybody. My name is Will Drewery. I'm a founder and CEO of an AI platform. And my company, we help our customers buy manufacturing equipment. I can talk a little bit more about it later, but I'll tell you that in my own personal lived experience, I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, so I'm a child of the Midwest. My grandparents and great-grandparents migrated there from the South a long time ago to work in the steel industry.
So, my grandfather, my aunts and uncles, most of my family members that were doing any kind of work with their hands were involved with industry in that capacity. And so in a very real, tangible way, as you mentioned, our blood, sweat, and tears is really what helped build the infrastructure of this country, bridges, railroads, the steel that we use as the core and skeleton of buildings.
And that was just very fundamental to the person that I ended up becoming. I fell in love with manufacturing very early on in my career, and I wanted the relationship that I have with manufacturing to be very different than the ones that my aunts and uncles and grandparents had. In the world of technology, you can be the overlord over the technology, or you can have the technology be the overlord over you. And I think that if we are going to be in any kind of position of power, we need to think about how we're going to be shaping the future and shaping a technology that we end up working with.
Darren Isom:
Thank you, Will. I've told you guys it was a powerful group, right? I mean, they're going to know what they're talking about. I'm going to throw this one to Afua, Ebele, I'd love for you to pick it up as well afterwards. And this one is more about thinking about creative lineage and how we build on that. And so from music to movement, from language liberation, Black creativity has always been a form of world building. And the new technology revolution, how can that creative lineage guide the way we design, code, and imagine the future?
Afua Bruce:
Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I especially love that framing because rather than starting from a position of reaction to here are all the ways technology isn't working for us, it's reorienting around the ways that we could imagine something different. I got to hear Aisha Brown speak a couple of weeks ago, and she said, "Imagination is infrastructure." And that really resonated with me because I think when we want to imagine what type of technology to create, let's think about what we want to imagine, and then build the technology from there.
So whether it's everything from thinking about how you can use AI to help spur the creative process. I think Google has partnered with a couple of artists to help come up with different writing tools and lyrical tools, and ways to use AI to support the brainstorming process there. I don't usually use Google as a lot of positive examples, but also Google's development of the Pixel camera and how they changed the development process there to collaborate with more photographers and artists who took more pictures of people with dark skin, to then build a camera that better takes people and captures the nuances of dark skin there.
Looking at how we develop products in that way is there. But I think also in imagining how we might orient AI especially to look at different languages, how we look at using AI in a way that rewards or acknowledges the cultural intelligence that has been referenced rather than is done in a purely extractive way. I think these are new ways that we can think about using technology and designing it in a way that really supports our imagination and our growth rather than creates more and more restrictions on how we look.
Darren Isom:
Got it. And Ebele, I want to throw that question to you as well and I'm going to offer a different prompt, if you will. It's the same question, a different prompt. And I'm reminded of Zora Neale Hurston quotes. Zora Hurston is extremely fascinating. The more I read about her, I'm like, "Oh, I wish she had more of a voice," because she was speaking the truth and we weren't listening to her. The quote that I hold onto a lot from her is this one that says that she always found it interesting that people's gods behave a lot like them. Absolutely right. Oof, thank goodness. That's a whole conversation we'll address a little bit later. But I think if you replace that gods with technology and what we're creating, you see the same thing to some degree, how people are using it and that envisioning is that that's what you're doing with the AI?
Really? That's what you're prompted to do. So, with that in mind, how do we take advantage of our creativity like people and how does that lead us to build something, or think about these things differently?
Ebele Okobi
I love that this was formatted around imagination and around radical imagination. And I'm going to push us a little because even when we're talking about radical imagination, we're often talking within the creations that have already been made. So, we're saying, how can we take the things that they have already made and make them work for us?
And so I would push us to say the things that they had made in their own image. I'm always curious when people are talking about AI, has anyone heard of the acronym TESCREAL, T-S-C... I think it's wild. So everyone after this, go out and look up what TESCREAL is. So I would do very quickly. TESCREAL is an acronym and because AI is animated by a number of theologies, one of them is transhumanism, and transhumanism itself is based in eugenics. And so that is that there are superior people and they're inferior people, guess who is superior, guess who is inferior, and that what you want, but the best case scenario is that these superior people can then meld with technology.
And as they meld with technology, it will create more superior races and that they will leave the inferior races behind. So, when you hear it, it sounds ridiculous, but those are the animating technologies behind it. And so, if you think about that, so whenever we talk about jobs going away, those are not an accident. Those are actually very much by design. And so, when I think of Black people in our lineages, if you're using a technology that is animated very much by a sense of the inferiority of certain people and the superiority of other people, what are you then using it for?
The imagination that is animating that is imagination that is absolutely across purposes with any conversations around justice or equity. I'm going to stop there because I could talk forever. We can get into later, like what it means that you do with it, but I do think that when we're thinking about radical imagination, I want us to dream different dreams.
Darren Isom:
No, this is great. I'm going to throw this next question to you, building on that quaint to some degree as well. And we talk about this all the time Ebele, this idea. I joke that as a Black professional, one of my biggest assets is also one of the biggest liabilities. And so Black Americans, we are uniquely well positioned to navigate broken systems. We look at a broken systems, like, "Oh, that's what they're doing?" Okay, let's do this and wrap around this way and whatnot and so forth. And you don't realize that in navigating broken systems, you're enabling them to stay broken. And I think that we're in a period now for builders. We're supposed to go... Because the system ain't holding. Things fall apart all over the place now. And so we create new systems and with that builders in mind, and I would love to think about, well, for you, as we think about equity and economic transformation, are the nations changing the nature of work?
Often ways that impact Black and Brown workers first, what bold, forward-looking strategies can ensure that communities of color aren't just protected from this place and positioned to lead, innovate, and thrive in this [inaudible 00:15:29]. How do we center ourselves as creators and builders?
Will Drewery:
I mean, I think it's very important that we first approach it with that mindset that we are the creators and builders, and that's something that we know from the things that we've created. When I talk to people about manufacturing and the history that we have in this country, this country has relied on Black people for a lot. Most of the things that people think they love about America, like our music, our food, our culture, it really comes from things that we created and things that we brought with us from the continent. When I think about this... I think about this a lot. I didn't talk much about some of the places that I've worked, but I think it'll be helpful to have some context as I answer this question. I've worked in lots of different manufacturing environments. Very early on in my career, I spent a year working in the Middle East.
I actually lived and worked in Baghdad, and I was helping companies rebuild factories that were damaged during the war. And it was a very powerful time to be there. This was 2008, 2009, when a lot of the infrastructure was being rebuilt. And I was thinking about how all of these people who were out of work that... Because the media would just demonize and make them seem like they're less than human, all they really wanted to do was to be productive members of society, build something and take care of their families. And when I stepped back and thought about that, it reminded me a lot of the community that I came from growing up in Pittsburgh.
When I moved to Northern California, early 20 teens, I took a job working for Tesla. And at this time, Tesla was a very early stage company. We had one vehicle that we were making at that time, Model S, I guess maybe two vehicles, but very low production.
And I remembered at that time, most of the factory was dark. Imagine it's like a five million square foot facility and almost all the lights are out except for a few patches of this factory where the lights are on, and we're jerry rigging cars together. I walked through there and I would meet people that look like me all the time. And I would ask them like, "Hey, Derek, tell me what you're working on." And he's like, "Oh, I got this wire harness and I'm trying to put this in here and sometimes it's not long enough, and I've got to figure out a way to jerry rig this around here." And I'm like, "Oh, okay, cool. Tell me about what will make your job easier?"
And these guys would tell me so many things about their job that were like ergonomic issues, or in finish issues that they'd have with the vehicle.
In my day job, my actual job there was buying equipment. I was actually in a position to go out and source some of these things that the team needed, things like lift assist that would help them lift up heavy tools so that they can work on the vehicle. We would have things like conveyance systems that would bring the car down the line. And it used to be that you have to literally get up under the car and work on it from the underneath, and it's a very stressful position to put your body into. They've got conveyors now that can soak the vehicle and turn it because it's on a roller bed, so that you're working with the car right in front of you.
It was a very formative experience for me in connecting the work that you do in an ivory tower with the work that's being done on the floor where the rubber meets the road, and you actually have people that are putting the actual manual labor in.
And so now as we're going into this era where we've got things like humanoid robotics that are entering the scene, all that I can think about is what's going to happen to these people who are doing these jobs today? What does the new era of work look like for people that are now going to be working maybe together with these robots today and in the future no longer working alongside them? And there's not a perfect answer for this. I actually think that the way that things are evolving, we are going to have to think about how we are going to develop the technology.
In this new era, we're going to need people who know and understand how to program robots, how to build them. At the end of the day, these things actually still need to be manufactured at some point. And so I think in going into this new age of AI, it's going to mean that we got to have creative ways of engaging in the workforce, and thinking about how we use these skills that we have developed and really honed within our disciplines as a means to build the next generation of products.
Darren Isom:
And what I want to do on that point for just a bit, because I think that you bring up this great point about almost this replacement approach as you think about the work itself. And I think there's a way to even be thinking about it a little differently. So, Ebele's point of what are we not even imagining that can totally replace you, assistant and approach. I want to bring this question to you and Ebele, I'd love you to pick up as well afterwards. As we witness AI's rapid growth, what feels most excited from an impact perspective?
[inaudible 00:20:25] to expand opportunity and creativity and communities of color. What are the key challenges you need to navigate to ensure the promise is realized equitably? And that maybe to some degree thinking about what are the ways that we've been doing things that actually in a new system, we don't even have to do that way.
And so I would love to just get your thoughts on what really excites you about this space and this place and opportunities that can come out of it.
Afua Bruce:
Yeah, I think there are many things about AI that legitimately excite me. There are many things about the current development of AI that opposite of excite me, but a lot of things that excite me. I do think some of the applications when it comes to research for healthcare, I lost my mother to cancer when I was a teenager. So, ways that we could use AI to support doctors and to support the medical system, I think are really interesting. I think the ways to use AI to help support what our food systems look like, both in what we grow, how we transport food. We already have so much food in the world, but it does not get to the people who are facing food insecurity often. So, how do we think differently about that?
But I'm also excited about imagining new ways of living. So, how do we, even as we continue to use technology more and more, how do we continue to prioritize meeting in person?
Or how do we start to think again about investing in community spaces and places where people gather, and what does that look like to build human-to-human connection? What are ways that AI can help support that? What are ways that we will intentionally say AI will not be in those spaces? I think that's really interesting. I think also one of your questions, what are some of the risks or what do we need to do, or what might we need to push against? And I think one of it is we need to make sure that we find ways to continue to believe that we can change the world, to continue to believe that how we want to create the world is what we can actually make happen.
The idea of a 40-hour workweek was revolutionary at some point. So, does it need to continue to be the same as we have more and more technology?
Darren Isom:
25.
Afua Bruce:
Right? Are there other ways that we can do that? Is that what we need to be pushing for? When we look at how societies are evolving, certainly here in the US, and we have more income disparity, we have people now paying for a lot of things that you used to get in community naturally. Do we think of, instead of rebuilding the safety net in the way that it had been over the past 50 years, do we think instead about how do we create spaces where you have intergenerational living? And that is how people distribute cost and distribute work, and support each other.
What are new ways we can think about surviving and living and thriving with each other that AI can fit into? So, I think one of the challenges, let's make sure that when we imagine our future and how AI can help, we start first by being clear about how we want to relate with each other, how we want to operate with each other, and then we figure out what technology, whether it's AI today or quantum or whatever tomorrow, can support that vision and help us realize that.
Darren Isom:
And Ebele, I'm going to direct the question at you with a bit of a different prompt is that we're seeing in many ways that you think about AI's development, all of the imaginations around how we can help rich White men become richer. And the starting point is off, obviously. And if we are a community people, broad strokes, and we're thinking about how do we build strong communities and share wealth to some degree, what's the role of AI in creating this new world? And the optimist in me would like to think about these last five years, 10 years, doesn't go this way all the time, is as a country we've gone for a bit of a growth spur. It doesn't feel this way, but I think that what it looks like now is very different than what it looked like just 10 years ago. And with all growth spurts, you wake up and you realize your clothes, your [inaudible 00:24:08] don't fit anywhere.
And that's where we are now. As a country, we're out here naked as hell. We're going back in the plaza for 1950s clothes. Richard, you're trying to find something. We know that won't fit either, but we're trying to cover ourselves. How do we think about AI really giving us the space to create those new systems, those new narratives that might be fundamentally different than what we've had in the past?
Ebele Okobi
I'm going to keep being that person. I'm going to step back a little bit. So, first of all, when we're saying AI, AI often means a lot of different things. AI is a marketing term that was deliberately made up and it covers a bunch of different things. So if we're talking about generative AI, which is like ChatGPT, whichever, which essentially hoovers up a bunch of information that has no license to hoover up, and then chops it into a thing. It's not thinking, it's not intelligent, it's just statistics. So, if we're talking about that, and then we're talking about the impact. So, the amount of resources it takes, because the way it has been put together, you could make it in all sorts of different ways. You can make small, large language model, you can make small language models that were very specific, where you got very specific, say, we're talking about cancer research, for example.
You could say, "This is just about cancer research. We're going to put together a model that's just that." And then we're going to get together what all the knowledge is in the world. That's not what they've decided to do, to your point, because the dudes who are doing it, it's not about... Let's be clear. It was never a solution that was being offered. It was a thing, it's like a solution in search of a problem. So, it was never meant to actually solve something. It was just a bunch of White dudes would decide to sell. So I think let's be clear, it was in the beginning they were trying to make God. I know it sounds ridiculous, but that is, so AGI was supposed to be this thing that was going to be smarter than humans. So that was the initial use of it.
It wasn't even necessarily meant to be for money. It was like, oh, we're going to make this thing that's going to be super, super smart and it's going to be so powerful that then it's going to take over the world. But we have to make it first because bad people will make it. And so if we don't make it first because we're good people-
Darren Isom:
We've all seen this movie.
Ebele Okobi
So, let's be super clear, that's where it came from. It didn't come from like, "Oh, there's a problem that we wanted to solve." So, once you have that, and this is what the basis of it is. So then saying, how can I apply this thing onto something else? I want us to step back and say, "What are the problems we actually want to solve? What is the future that we want for ourselves? What is the community we want for ourselves?"
The resources that go into AI and try to make AI a thing are killing us. If you look at the amount of water that's being used, you look at data centers, if you look at where they're putting them, so they're putting them in Kenya, they're putting them in communities where we are, data centers and communities where we are. And think about the environmental impact, the fact that you have communities fighting for water with these data centers.
So, I don't say that to say that I think that everything is bad, but I'm saying that there's a whole conversation about AI as if it's inevitable. And then we keep shoving AI into everything like a bad ingredient as opposed to saying, "Oh, wait a minute, let's step back. What do we want? What do we need for our communities?" None of this is inevitable. And having been at tech companies for many, many years, the moment when they're like, "This is coming, this is coming, this is coming," that's marketing. So, then you believe that it's coming, then the question is, "Oh, how can I make it work for me?"
No, no, no. There's always a moment where we can think to ourselves, no, what are we trying to build? What communities do we want? You talked about this need for us to think in a collective. We have those technologies. These are not new technologies. These are technologies that I think are very distinctively African across the Black Atlantic. So, how do we think about the things that we have created and create systems that support that as opposed to taking these systems that were created for a very specific purpose that has nothing to do with us, and thinking how can we make them fit something that they were never intended to fit and never willed?
Darren Isom:
And so I'll turn my question on you. I mean, what are the things that we need that we should be using and we should be building on?
Ebele Okobi
I think solidarity is a huge thing. The moment in which we find ourselves, which actually is the moment that America has been heading to for a long time, even because of the way America was founded, how else was it going to end? The only thing that has ever saved us any time at any point is solidarity. The other thing is art.
I think it's very interesting that one of the things that this generative AI conversation is coming for is art and artists, creativity, that is another thing.
Darren Isom:
No, I know that. This is ridiculous.
Ebele Okobi
But artists help us imagine the world as it could be, right? It gives us the radical imagination to think, no, we can dream different dreams. And so I would want, I think, for us to really think about what could we create, and then to be really thinking in solidarity and community.
One of the things that always bothers me is this sense of, we need to have Black people at the table, but some tables, we have no business being yet. King talked about integrating its people into a burning house. If I think about my goal as a Black person, my goal is not to have Black people at the top of systems of harm. If you think about slavery, would it have been better if you had a bunch of Black... If we could just get some Black slave owners, then that would make it better.
Darren Isom:
It's validating a system.
Ebele Okobi
Correct. And so I just think we need to think differently about how we are engaging these systems. Some of these systems shouldn't exist. And so we are in a moment right now that calls for courage and radical imagination, which is not how can we take crumbs from the tables that have already been created for us, and try and make it work.
It's really calling us to think, how can we think dramatically differently? And some of it is going back to technologies that we knew from before, which are around solidarity, creativity, et cetera.
Darren Isom:
Afua, I want to ask you the same question as well. What does it look like for you? What are things are recreating? What are we building on community from AI?
Afua Bruce:
From an AI perspective?
Darren Isom:
Yeah.
Afua Bruce:
So, I'd say a couple of things. A couple of years ago, I wrote a book called The Tech That Comes Next with a wonderful colleague, Amy Sample Ward, and we talked about the tech that comes next is people. And so really leaning into what does community mean? How do we build practices to gather together, to talk about our wants, to design them, and then recognize that wherever we are, whether we are funders, whether we're technologists, whether we lead mutual aid organizations or community-based organizations in whatever forms, whatever roles, there are different sort of levers that everyone has, but you have to bring them all together to figure out what we want to do next.
And so that's what I think about and thinking about AI tools that work. So, I'd say a couple of the things that I've seen that do excite me of, I'll say, of technologies that are out there today are ways to preserve languages, and to teach younger generations different indigenous languages.
I think that's a really exciting use case. I think ways to help entertain and connect are also really important. Not in the using AI to replace humans. We're talking about friend.com and ordering a device all the time that-
Darren Isom:
You all know about friend.com, right?
Afua Bruce:
For those of you who haven't, don't bother. But really looking for ways to lean into community and find ways to better collaborate, I think is really important. But one of the things that I think most about now, even as someone who has been working with AI in different forms for 10 years now, is really how do we teach people to communicate with each other? How do we make sure that we are teaching people to reason, to understand logic, to understand nuance, to be able to communicate that, to be able to hear other perspectives and navigate those relationships.
And so I know you asked about what AI tools do I think we need, but I think a lot of it is back to basics. Let's learn how to be human and really lean in to all of the complexity and messiness and beauty of human relationships.
Darren Isom:
Will, you have your thoughts on that one as well?
Will Drewery:
Yeah, I'll say it's hard to go after these two, Ebele and Afua. They're just brilliant minds. And I think there's a lot that's been said about, Ebele, what you were mentioning, what are the needs? So what are the actual needs that we all have? I think things like food security. Food security is a basic human need. We need housing. We need healthcare. Those are the problems that we need to be solving. I think the people are and always will be at the cornerstone of solving those problems, but the tool set is evolving. And so maybe the place where I think I'll disagree with you is that, yeah, I think the AI may have started as a marketing term, but I do believe that at this point it's becoming inevitable. It's becoming part of the day-to-day tool set that most professionals are using, most students these days, and schools are using them.
And it's hard to find any corner of any industry that today isn't impacted by the use of AI. And so the ways that I'm thinking about this now is, okay, if this tool is here to stay, then how are we going to use it to solve some of these problems? And I think that's where it's really up to us and all of our creative energy to think about how we're going to use this technology and apply it to these fields that we all care about. I think the reason why a lot of these fields are broken are very intentional. There are incentive systems set up in the healthcare system. Keep it expensive, make it expensive, and keep it expensive. There are incentives in the housing market that make it inaccessible to a large proportion of the country and the people that need those homes. I think that no one that isn't negatively impacted by any of those issues really has an incentive to want to do anything about it.
And that's really where I think we can draw from our strength to say that we are people who are impacted by these problems. We have the ability and know how to solve these problems, and we're going to use every tool in our tool set to achieve that. I'm reminded of, I think most of us in this room have been around since before the internet, but during that time, it was a very terrifying time for lots of people. There were lots of people who were at risk of losing their jobs because the internet made it obsolete. And from what it enabled and what it unlocked, it was a very disruptive period for at least half a decade, if not an entire decade. But the thing that I saw that was really beautiful in that is that there were still Black creators that were creating things like voiceover IP to make it incredibly cheap to talk to your friends and family that live on the continent, or anywhere else in the world.
And these technologies today, we really take them for granted, but it really was the person with the problem and the knowledge of how to solve it, using that tool to make something that now impacts in a positive way impacts all of us. I think I've got lots of reasons to maybe not be optimistic about how AI is being rolled out, but for all of you in the room today, I think you all give me a reason to be hopeful and optimistic about it. I think the people at the end of the day that have that technology are going to be the ones to solve that problem. Thank you.
Darren Isom:
And so I'm forever optimist as well, and I think that Lyco is going to be just fine. For me, the question is how do we actually take advantage of technology would be even better and actually thrive through it all? And I only have a few more minutes, actually. And so I want to have one final question here, and throw it out to you guys if you have questions to the audience as well.
And you've noted this, and I'll start with you and have the others respond as well, how we're living in a moment that really calls for bold leadership, folks that can really get imaginative, that can really bring in other voices, kind of with transformative ideas. How do we advance a collective agenda around AI rooted in justice and possibility even when we face resistance? What's the pro-solidarity look like for us as a community and as a group of folks?
Ebele Okobi
So the question is, what's the push for solidarity as it's connected to AI, or solidarity in general?
Darren Isom:
100%. I think it's more the, as we think about advancing solidarity in the face of AI, what's the approach? What's the way do we do that?
Ebele Okobi
So I do think that there's a real opportunity to need for education. And when I say education, not education on how to use these tools, but to really understand. Even when we're saying AI, what are we talking about? So I think that's a big thing. And I think for communities to actually truly understand what the impact is, and then I don't think that things are inevitable.
I think having been at tech companies when something was happening externally and you were scrambling in the background going, "Oh my God, oh my God, this might not happen." Inevitability is something that is a message to ensure that this thing happens. I think there's also a way that our needs are seen as externalities, if that makes any sense. So it works for everyone. Now, it made me killing all of y'all, but it works for everyone. So when I think about solidarity, and I think about this as someone who is in tech, there is a sense that the children who are in the Congo digging for Cobalt, the data workers who were in Kenya, reading all this horrible... Were completely separated from those of us who were at tech.
And so you were able to see yourself as separate from them. And so whatever happened to them had nothing to do with you, and so there wasn't a sense of solidarity. So, if I'm thinking about tech now, one of the things that would be a challenge is think of yourself, if you are in tech, if you're a tech, as in solidarity with all those people. If you're in solidary with all those people, then what's happening to them that's not an externality? And if your industry requires that to happen, ask yourself, is this a thing that is necessary? Am I happy with sacrificing my people or these people in order for this thing? Does this trade-off make sense? So when I think about solidarity is really pushing to say, is this convenience that I have worth this? And if it's not, how can we imagine something that's different that doesn't just privilege the few at the expense of everyone else, especially when everyone else are people who look like us?
Darren Isom:
Yeah. Afua, same question for you. As we think about solidarity in this moment, how do we advance just this oriented AI tool and AI resources in a way that supports solidarity as a community?
Afua Bruce:
I think a lot about expertise and being comfortable with deferring to people with different expertise than you, and also owning the expertise that you have. So, give you examples of two conversations that I've had over the past year. I've had some version of someone from Silicon Valley contacting me with some version of, "I'm very smart. I have been in tech for a while. I've made a lot of money, and now I've decided I want to help people. I know you work in the nonprofit space. I know you work with social impact organizations, so tell me how I can get every nonprofit person to use AI as a thought partner on a daily basis, and then I would have solved all social issues."
And there's some back and forth of like, "I don't think you understand. Here's what you should do instead." Namely, there are people who are already doing good work, just give them money, and let them do good work, or just partner with people who are doing good work already and help advance the work that they are doing.
And I don't know that we do that enough. And so I think that's the first thing.
The other is really owning the expertise. You're an expert in your own life, you're an expert in how your own specific segment of your community lives, and really leaning into what that means. So a different version of that conversation, I've had a very different version is working with some engineers in Ghana and Kenya who are saying, "Oh, we are working with our families who are small farm owners and we know we have access to all of this data on crop yields and the weather and what diseases look like. We know other people are capturing this information. We know there's no way we'd ever get information in this third area, but do you think we can imagine building some type of AI, maybe generative, maybe not, to help us better analyze different information about agriculture, so that we can better protect our crops against diseases. We can better figure out when to sell our crops and things like that."
And that is owning your local expertise and looking for the tools that are the right answer to that legitimate problem that you have that you understand. So, I'd say really lean into expertise, find, defer to expertise when necessary, and lean in and own your own expertise also when necessary.
Darren Isom:
And Will, I'll let you close this out. And the question for you is really thinking about those tables that we should be at from a conversation perspective that we should be able to be leading or owning the conversation around. Any thoughts there?
Will Drewery:
Yeah, sure. I think it's hard to think about having solidarity with each other if we're not first in community with each other. And so in my shows and area of expertise in manufacturing, I spent a lot of time building and investing in a network of manufacturing leaders. Specifically, last year I started building a community of Black manufacturing leaders and technology leaders. It started as a simple group chat. It's invitation only, each one reach one. And my objective in doing that was to just know who is out there. If I've got someone coming to me saying, "Hey, I'm looking for a wire harness manufacturer. I want to have someone in my network that I can promote."
Like you mentioned, Afua, someone that's already doing the work, and all I need to do is tee that up, and say, "Hey, look, if you're looking for this, look no further. I've got a great person for you." And so what we do is we share business opportunities, customers looking for suppliers, we share job opportunities because if we have people that are working in decision-making seats, then they can actually impact and make decisions on behalf of a company. And it has really turned into an amazing thing where now we collectively can talk about, okay, in this environment of anti-DEI everything, how do we formulate a plan that will enable us to not just survive, but thrive in these next four years, and thinking about how do we invest in each other, and how do we promote each other so that we're making it through and doing the best that we can?
I think that's just one example in the manufacturing community, and I see that there are community leaders like this all over in different industries in education, in law.
And I think that it really starts with us. We as people are very... We're magnetic. We can pull people together. We can get people to come out and join phone calls and do things that they maybe wouldn't otherwise do on their own. And I think there's a lot of power in that, that we need to be harnessing more often.
Darren Isom:
Thanks, Will. And I think also just a closing thought for me. I think it's important for us to be thinking about definitely what are the gaps that we're trying to fill, but also what are the assets that we have that we're trying to leverage and maximize?
Gary Johnson:
Thank you for joining us and listening to this important conversation in addition of Dreaming In Color Live. My name is Gary Johnson, co-founder and chief strategy officer at UUNTOLD Impact, a culture intelligence and social innovation firm helping organizations build authentically and impactfully with Black and multicultural audiences who shape culture every day. We had the honor and privilege of co-producing this episode with Darren and the Bridgespan Group, and there was no better backdrop than LA Tech Week, a moment where innovation, culture, and imagination collide.
We had the opportunity to explore one of the most pressing challenges of our time. What does the rise of artificial intelligence mean for equity, creativity, and community? What you just heard was more than a panel. It was the beginning of a deeper conversation, one that surfaces both the harm and the opportunity in this moment, and asks us to ground ourselves in humanity and miss a landscape that can feel increasingly dystopian.
You also heard the very first convening of our new event series, BOLD, which stands for Building Ownership, Leadership, and Disruption. The purpose of BOLD is simple: to bring us together, to create space where Black and multicultural leaders and allies can build solidarity, sharpen our collective imagination, and move with courage and conviction as we boldly shape the future. We're excited to expand this series in 2026, hosting more conversations like the one you just heard across new cities and alongside new partners.
So, please, like, subscribe, and stay tuned for what's ahead. We'll leave you with this quote from Octavia Butler, a reminder of our power, our responsibility, and our possibility. All that you touch, you change, all that you change changes you. May we continue changing our communities and letting our communities change us as we continue dreaming in color and building together what comes next. Thank you.
Darren Isom:
And that's a wrap for today's Dreaming In Color Live conversation. These are the kinds of rooms where new ideas take shape, where truth gets spoken and where community grows, and I'm grateful you chose to be here with us. Dreaming In Color Live is a British band supported production, creating partnership with content allies, a special thank you to our show producers, Denise Savash and Dustin Seysafe. Our associate producer, Sakina Khan, and our onboarding producer, Lambert Cruz. Deep gratitude as well to Gary Johnson, co-founder and chief strategy officer, and Alana Cheeks-Lomax, co-founder and chief executive officer at UNTOLD Impact, our partners in shaping and stewarding this episode. And a special thank you to Chuck Marcus, founder and CEO of PS92 Studios, our invaluable production partner. And of course, a huge shout-out to my Bridgespan production partner, the ever brilliant Cora Daniels, my partner in good trouble and all the dreaming that happens behind the scenes.
If you enjoy today's conversation, be sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, and that's how this community grows. Thanks for listening. Until next time, keep dreaming in color.
