Episode Notes:
In this week’s episode, we travel to Tunisia to talk with Leila Ben-Gacem, a social entrepreneur and cultural preservationist, who shares her journey from biomedical engineering to community-based entrepreneurship in the heart of Tunis’ historic Medina. The conversation takes place at Dar Ben Gacem, her boutique hotel and social enterprise that not only revitalizes a historical space but also empowers the local community through inclusive hiring, artisan collaboration, youth education support, and economic opportunity. Leila emphasizes redefining profit to include social and environmental impact, advocating for a shared economy model where local prosperity is interlinked. This extraordinary conversation touches on the many layers that make up modern African identity in all its myriad forms helping to make Africa “home” to not just those on the continent but around the globe.
Episode Transcript
Intro: Darren Isom
Welcome to Dreaming in Color, a space for social change leaders of color to reflect on how their unique life experiences, personal and professional, can prepare them to lead and drive the impact we all seek. I'm your host, Darren Isom.
This season, we're traveling to the continent to highlight African leaders and the continent's role as a key driver of global innovation and leadership. So, join us as we travel across the continent, from South Africa to Tunisia, with stops in Kenya, Ethiopia, Nigeria, and Senegal along the way, celebrating the diaspora in all of its complexity and beautiful possibility. This is Dreaming in Color: Africa.
And today's guest is Leila Ben-Gacem, a social entrepreneur and Ashoka Fellow. Leila designs and implements projects that help communities thrive through impact investments in cultural heritage and cultural tourism. Leila is Director General of Tunistoric, founder of Bluefish Consulting, Dar Ben-Gacem boutique hotel, Darrell Harker community space and a co-founder of EIG Vendenti. In her past life, Leila was a biomedical engineer. In her future life, she would like to become a writer, and we're lucky to talk with her today in the courtyard of her beautifully restored boutique hotel in the Tunis Medina.
Darren Isom
Leila, thanks so much for making time. It's great to chat with you today. (Great to have you here). It's a beautiful space to have a conversation as well. (Welcome home). Thank you. As you know, we start the conversation by giving you the floor. I hear you have an invocation prepared for us. What you got?
Leila Ben-Gacem
Yes, so first, when you asked me to find a quote, I was reading Ibn Khaldoun, looking through old poetry, trying to be sophisticated. (Yes) And then I decided, Why complicate life? There's a song that I like by Balti. He's a Tunisian rapper. In fact, I recommend that you try to go and see him online. (I'm gonna pull him up on Spotify) 7 million followers (Oh wow). I'm not gonna sing it because I'm a very bad singer. Otherwise, I'll break the glass.
(Leila sings in Tunisian Arabic, the song Rassi El Foug by Balti.) Anyway, I'll translate. So it says:
No matter how hard we work, how tired we are, how much we cry,
We fall, we stand up, we make our people happy
We keep our heads up, and up, and up.
We dreamt it and made it happen
Everything is in the hands of God
Success is in the hands of God
Always expect what is good
See the world in a fresh eye
The flower will flower tomorrow
No more sighting
God will show the way
Even if I suffer
I know I will make it
Step by step we will rise up
Darren Isom
It's beautiful. So one, I love that’s what you chose, and I love that you picked a rap song as well some hip hop. We'll come back to that importance of hip hop in conversation, but also anything that reminds us to stay steadfast. And it reminds me of a New Orleans rapper who always says, we will bend, but we don't break, right? And so really important to keep our heads up right. So that's that we couldn't start the conversation better. So thank you for that. I want to start actually jumping in from a questions perspective: you built a life that is so deeply rooted in community, heritage and possibility. I get the sense that your sense of space and place and connection to where you are from really informs the way you move through the world. So can you talk a little about what lessons or experiences you carry with you from your early years growing up here in Tunisia that still guides you today?
Leila Ben-Gacem
So I did not grow up in Tunisia (ah, OK, say more.) and I think that's maybe part of why I so want to deepen my roots here. Tunisia for us, was the summer place. So we grew up abroad. My father used to work abroad, and we used to come home to Tunisia every summer, and we’d come back to a very simple life. We come from a city 60 kilometers from here. It's called MeKhalid. Both my parents are from this little town, and I used to treasure the simplicity. Just it's a small community. Everybody knows each other. It's the only place on Earth where, when I was young, my mother would let us run in the street, and I mean we can walk in every house, and people would know who we are. And that was just very magical to me. And then I grew up, I worked around the world a little bit, but then I, the more I traveled, the more I realized that we underestimate our culture and heritage. We, even young people that I meet, they often think what is outside of Tunisia is what's great, what's “wow,” you know? But I think we are also “wow,” and I feel we underestimate the potential of our culture and heritage to create opportunities. And when I say opportunities, it's hope, it's positivity, it's inspiration, it's not just money.
Darren Isom
And so we'll come back to this whole point of, how do we use culture as an anchor to drive success and really appreciate where we're from, and see where we're from, is the answer. And that's something that you have on the side. You've mentioned that you love business adventures that have more than just a financial impact, projects that preserve heritage, create jobs and strengthen the community. Where do you think that philosophy comes from? Tell us a little about that.
Leila Ben-Gacem
I'm an obsessed social entrepreneur, so I love this.
Darren Isom
That's a beautiful obsession.
Leila Ben-Gacem
I just think that business needs to be profitable, but profit is not just financial. You need to have some social profits. There must be a social return on investment. And I think creating businesses that have the balance between financial return on investment and return on social impact, community impact, environment impact should be as important as the financial impact in business. And I think this is how we can create social harmony. I mean, I am trying. I'm trying to. Whenever I'm invited to talk about social entrepreneurship, I cannot stop myself, because I want to contaminate everyone. But I think creating wealth and using it for something good is the magic of being a business owner.
Darren Isom
I mean, it's quite magical, but you recognize it's quite unique from a thinking perspective. Unfortunately. Where do you think that came from? Where do you get that inspiration to think about business entrepreneurship that way?
Leila Ben-Gacem
There was no one-time click, you know? I mean, everything in life is a journey. Yeah, of course, I agree. It came over, over time. And, you know, after I graduated, I worked for a multinational corporation, and even though I loved my job, I mean, I enjoyed what I was doing, but just working for these, for multinational corporations, you feel? I mean, of course, they provide goods and services that are needed for the community, but the ultimate goal is to have more zeros. And I shouldn't underestimate the importance of multinational corporations. It's quite impressive and important. And I would love to have a multinational corporation myself, but I think it's, it's there's more. I mean, business needs to have, has the possibility to do more than just giving more to the shareholders. I think everybody needs to benefit, the people that work there, the community, the environment, all of them needs to get part of the profit.
Darren Isom
Yep, and that's the challenge, but it's also the huge opportunity, right? (Yes) You mentioned earlier this idea of a journey. And as we think about the work and we think about life, so many of us, our work is driven by our identities, and identity is something we're constantly shaping and reshaping and shifting as we grow and we have differences of who we are and who we are changes based on who, who in front of how has your understanding of your own identity, a Tunisian woman, evolved over the years. And how does it show up in the way you design spaces, build systems, or even tell stories?
Leila Ben-Gacem
II's a beautiful question. I hope I will do it justice (I'm sure you will). Totally. Heritage is dynamic. We create heritage every day in my work repurposing heritage, I realize always that what we decide to preserve or not to preserve is based on what's right and wrong today, and our perception changes with what's happening in the world, The geopolitics and a lot of other things. So yes, it is impacted. It is dynamic. And I think with today's Tunisian community and the Medina specifically, the heritage, I mean the cultural, the built the cultural built heritage, at least, in my opinion, can contribute more to the urban development. And this is what we're trying to work on as a boutique hotel embedded in the Medina of Tunis. So really become part of it. It's an inclusive investment, I like to call it. So all of our team are from the community. You know, people who work here, they come to work walking. They're all in the neighborhood. All of our suppliers are from the community, and it drives our accountant crazy, because some of them are informal businesses. But you know, if we don't create business for them, then they don't have the chance to become formal sector. Of course, also, we try to reinvest all of our profits in the community, either by helping young people. And this is another challenge that we personally, I'm very passionate about.
We have a very high school dropout rate in Tunisia, so we try to either help young people stay in school, or our team members who are high school dropouts help them go back to education. So this way the whole community benefits. And the urban development, it's a very slow process. I'm not going to claim that we were doing major differences, but human development, urban development, needs to be slow, so slow, but it's an important, sustainable… it's a journey, and this is where the journey comes in. I think we need to be patient. We need to be empathetic with people. We need to give people a chance, community a chance, and slowly grow with them. (Yeah) With them, by them, and for them.
Darren Isom
Exactly. And we'll come back to that a little bit later. I want to spend a little bit more time talking about your life experiences and how they really shaped how you lead the works that as someone has chatted with you a few times, I've seen your work and how it's played out. You are very humble about how unique life experiences really shape how you think about the world and adds to it. You describe your past life as a biomedical engineer, a foundation that led to an incredible dynamic and purpose-driven career across entrepreneurship, heritage, preservation and public service, what guided your decision to move beyond the lab and into the Medina, what sparked that? That's a shift?
Leila Ben-Gacem
Well, yes, I was a biomedical engineer in a big corporation. Travelled a bit around the world. I could have stayed there forever. And as I was an engineer, I always thought, you know, when I retire, I'll become a social entrepreneur. (Oh, really, okay). But then I couldn't wait.
Darren Isom
You took an early retirement, which is a career change.
Leila Ben-Gacem
Exactly. I think I retired at around 30, and then I decided I'm only gonna do things that are meaningful, have meaning. Yeah, have you know, they make me become my own boss, but things that helped me generate an income for myself and help others thrive as I thrive as well. So I started working with it was a very big journey. I started working with women artisans, (oh, wow), helping them improve the exportability of their products. So I worked in different many rural areas in Tunisia. It was, it was a, it was a big shift in my life. It was, I mean, for my family, it looked like I was lost. And I'm sure they were worried, very worried, very worried. And to me and myself, I felt lost, but I was very happy. And in the first few years, it was a I was not making a lot of money, but I was so happy. I felt like I found my place, and I did not know what was the right business model to make it work for me. Yeah, so. So in the beginning, I started working with artists and trying to help them export their products. But then I realized that they are not pricing, right? You know, sometimes a woman, when she prices her carpet, she only thinks of raw materials, does not look at her labor, her life expectancy.
Darren Isom
We joke in the States, you have to price with pride. Yeah.
Leila Ben-Gacem
So I realized, if I help them sell more, I might make them poorer because the price is wrong. So I decided, “Okay, I'm going to move a shift plate back and help them rethink their pricing.” So I started giving some workshops on how to calculate your life costs and how to include that in your price. And then in doing that, I realized that that's not enough, because they don't have the possibility to market. And one thing led to the other, until I realized that cultural heritage needs to be part of, I mean, the storytelling of the city needs to be part of all this. And that's where I started thinking of having a small boutique hotel in an urban setting like this in the Medina. So it's by coincidence, this house was on sale and it was in the newspaper announcement, and my father saw it. He's like, look, didn't you want to buy an old house. "Yeah, but I don't have money". "Let's go see it."
Darren Isom
OK exactly. Pop's trying to be helpful. For his lost daughter,
Leila Ben-Gacem
Exactly. So I remember the first so we called the owner of the house, and I remember, I can never forget that the first day, he opened the door and we walked in, and I was in this courtyard, and of course, I'm trying to negotiate the price with this old man, and I was, but I was trying to control my tears, you know, because the beauty of the courtyard is so human. It's beautiful. It's so human. It's just there's so many human stories in this space, like, I mean, the families there was there were weddings, there were funerals, there were children playing, there were women cooking and washing, there were men staying up at night. And then there were a lot of artisans. Their were artisans who did every part but, but it's different layers of artisans. I mean, the house must have undergone, I don't know how many restorations since the 15th century. So it's layers and layers. And then there were wars, and there were times of war and times of peace and different migrants. Yeah. I mean, everything that happened in the Mediterranean impacted us. Yeah. There were Italians that migrated. There were some Ottomans who came. And then there were the Andalusians. Everyone came with their own built heritage, and it's all united to make this space. So it's Tunisian today, but it's like a melange of different cultures. And is, I mean, there was, I just stood in the courtyard, there was so many stories, and I it was not buying a house. It was like a national obligation to save it. And it tells the story of artisans, yeah, and I thought this, this can complement perfectly everything else I'm doing.
Darren Isom
I mean, there's something powerful there. In this idea of the home was a reflection of a narrative. It was a story. Yes, in some ways you were, you were helping with that story, making sure this story was told in a way that was beautiful and meaningful. But I get this that you had that obligation, right? Like you had to, you had to capture this story and tell it in a way that was powerful. You've noted in the past the distinction between being an inhabitant of a place and becoming a true citizen of it, right? And as you talk about that story, I would love for you to talk a little bit more about what does the transformation from inhabitant to citizen mean to you, especially in the context of the Medina, and what kinds of experiences help people make that shift?
Leila Ben-Gacem
Wow. Yes, I think that's a personal journey that everybody needs to live. And you can't just tell people to convert from an inhabitant to an active citizen. And I especially felt that when I was elected city councillor, and I think that was the biggest challenge of we, you know, Tunisia has undergone a revolution. And before the revolution, we were all inhabitants, and the decisions were made from the top. And then after the revolution, everybody became responsible for everything. It's a mess, but it's an important journey that we as a nation need to go through, until you know, whoever can lead on different things can do. And again, it's a journey. I see it in my team, and I'm very proud that some of them are now. They spend the weekend planting trees in a public space in the Medina. And I think that came because they lived the journey and they saw and in fact, even with artisans around us, with the, you know, the community that we work a lot with, I mean, you again, you cannot tell people to come to become, you know, be an active citizen. You cannot say that to people, but when they see examples and they understand why the common good makes us all win, that's how people, with time, appreciate it and become contributors to better living conditions in their communities.
Darren Isom
And I imagine a bit of it as well as this idea that you're encouraging people to have a sense of belonging within a place. But with that, belonging becomes a sense of agency, right? Like you have some you belong there becomes your place, and as a result, you have a role in that place as well. And so much of your work has been around giving that sense of belonging and agency to youth. You've been very involved in civic life in your hometown for decades and still champion youth participation in local government and civic engagement in the Medina, where there's so much rich history. What is the role of youth empowerment, youth agency and success, and why is it so important to bring them into the fold?
Leila Ben-Gacem
My best example is, bless him, Muhammad Ali. Maybe you met him? He's my colleague. Ah, no, today is his day off, but anyway, you will meet him. But yes, Muhammad Ali is from the community, and he said something to me that meant so much. I get emotional every time I remember. He said, because a guest asked him, “What does Dar-Ben Gassem mean to you?” (Oh, wow.) And he said, “I used to think that for my life to be better, I have to leave the Medina. But now I realize we can make it better here now.” And I think even if you make one person believe, make that sentence and strongly believe in it, that's or me, it's what more profits can you make?
Darren Isom
Powerful, yeah. I mean, you talked about this earlier, this idea of hiring young people who dropped out of school, not as a charitable act, but really as an act of human investment. And what is it like to build an economy and society that truly recognizes and empowers different forms of brilliance? And what's your role, particularly in a space like the Medina, where there's so many beautiful, brilliant people who very often get overlooked, who may not have the. Confidence to understand their brilliance. What's your role in making sure that shines and people appreciate it?
Leila Ben-Gacem
I think we all agree that talent is everywhere, but not opportunities. So I think if you create (Most of us at least) yes, yes. I think when, when you create an environment where people can create opportunities for themselves and seize them and flourish and see themselves grow. You can't stop them after that. It's like something that went on in their mind. You know, instead of just sitting, “ah, the government did not give me they should deny I need to migrate.” But, you know, just creating opportunities. And this is this, when I started the business, I used to always talk about shared economy, and I think everybody in the community understands what's shared economy. now. You know, I create a business for you, you create a business for me. Both of us win, and then we create businesses for other people, and that's how we uplift each other, and I think this is the this is how, what darling, guess really stands for. I mean, people approach us because they give us more opportunities. Just last week, a student from the National School of Architecture, she wants to travel on a on a study trip. And she's like, I can teach sketching. May I teach sketching in this courtyard to guests or people coming from the outside so I can make some money to travel. And Igo, “of course,” so both of us win. And she can, you know, maybe she, she will become, become a...
Darren Isom
I mean, you, you say that so humbly and so easily, but it also requires you to be able to see in people things they don't often see in themselves. And so I would imagine that you've your experiences have taught you about how ways to measure potential, ways to measure genius, brilliance in ways that others may not see it. What do you think needs to shift in terms of how we define success for young people, how we define success from an educational perspective to make sure that those folks are really empowered and feel valued and seen.
Leila Ben-Gacem
I wouldn't call myself humble. I would call myself extremely, extremely patient. Because, because, because, I mean, especially with my team and other people in the community, you give them a chance. Sometimes they seize it. Sometimes not. Sometimes they're bored because you're giving them a chance, and it's too much responsibility. And then they let go. And then you give them another chance, and then a third, sometimes a fourth. You should, you should give up from the first time, (No) no, at some point. I mean, either they will, they will not come and again, or they will, they will think, Oh, my God, you know, now I have to do something. And I believe that they will come where people, you know, will really… I believe that anyone, I mean, people want to grow in their life. I mean, especially young people, they twant to grow. I mean even us, everyone when in our 20s, when we were a teen. No, we want, we want opportunities. And sometimes it's not…it's not the right time. It's not, the circumstances are not right. The way it was delivered is not sometimes it's me, you know, the way I deliver it maybe, and I try different ways. So it's really more patience, yeah? And finally, I mean, even if it's 10 people, there's one or two who seized, and I see that they can go on by themselves. I'm very happy,
Darren Isom
Yeah, but it's patience. But I think you actually act with a bit of grace as well. And so grace is just as important and patience with all these things you talked about this earlier, but particularly your work here in the Medina. Your work really highlights both the strengths and the struggles faced by traditional crafts like the shea industry, and you present the incredible entrepreneurial might within these sectors, you see huge opportunity that exists there. What are some of the unique strengths and ingenuity you witness within Tunisia's traditional crafts industry, and how can these be further supported and collaborated with on a global scale? Or is that even the answer is success not necessarily going global? Is it just going deeper locally?
Leila Ben-Gacem
I used to think that that exporting is the solution, because we have the number of artisans that we have in Tunisia, if we want to preserve all of their manual intelligence, our purchasing power is going lower. The dinar is getting devaluated. The demand is too low. The geopolitics, this that. But now I think not only deep, but diversify, I think we need to to think horizontal and vertical, you know? Yes, I mean, I think, I think young people, when they also get involved in designing things in different ways, I mean, sometimes artisans that, you know, they think this, this product has been done like this for five generation. It needs to be like this. But then you have a young designer who's more courageous in exploring different ways, and maybe they can market better and create a new narrative that is more acceptable now today, I think that's important to create those positive links (Of course) but also the narrative and the, I think the power of the ecosystem is underestimated. It's, you know, like getting embedded in something like this, you know, like, you know, you like this tabel because you've used it, you know. And you can see it in your house. This was hand embroidered by a lady, and you see it, and you think, Oh, why not? So it's like giving it life, making it part of the ecosystem. And this gives a new narrative that is, that is that creates more socio economic impact, and I think, also telling a deeper story. And this is where artisans are. Sometimes they underestimate the power.
Darren Isom
The power of the story is really, yea...
Leila Ben-Gacem
Ah, the story... I mean, I work with artisans in the Medina and outside the Medina. And I mean, they think that the product will sell itself. And we all know this is not enough today. I mean, just telling the customer that you are for fifth generation, you see the product. I mean, you tell, I don't know, you tell, how many women working from home to make this product, little product, little humble product in front of you.
Darren Isom
Yea, I think in some ways, the product becomes a version of the narrative. It becomes a part of the story. And people are actually buying into the story. And it's so powerful. I mean, you told the story about walking into this beautiful space and hearing the stories and feeling the stories and feeling this obligation. Walking through the Medina, we did a tour yesterday. I've been here before, on previous trips, even this morning, as we came in for our conversation, it's really like stepping into living archive, right? I mean, every sound, every stone, every scent, carries a story, and it's the story of the Medina. It's a story of Tunis, the story of Tunisia. And I would love to just give you some space to celebrate Tunisia as this important place on the continent, and also its connection to the continent and to all the places we visited, be it Senegal, be it South Africa, as well as the opening it offers to the larger world, be at the Middle East and Europe.
Leila Ben-Gacem
It was the, lets say, the port of entry of Europe. Everything that’s happened in the Mediterranean kind of passed by Tunisia to get into Africa. We are part of the continent. In fact, our identity; it adds beauty to our identity. We are Africans first because this is where we are. We are mediterranean. Everything that happened in the Mediterranean impacted our culture. We speak Arabic, so we call ourselves Arabs, but that’s because of the language. But, uh, we have a mix of cultures. You see it in our music, you see it in our clothes, you see it in our food. And I hope you have time to enjoy the diversity of our culture.
Darren Isom
And I have, so I've enjoyed it in the past. I'm enjoying it on this trip. I think what always feels interesting when I'm here, and I say this with love, is that it feels very familiar in so many different ways, right? So there's the African portion of it all, there's the Mediterranean portion of it all, but I think more importantly, there's the calibration of all these very different stories in a way that feels sincere and powerful and magical. And so I love this idea of, although I'm using it as my exit point from the continent, for others, it was their entry point. That's a really powerful way of thinking about it. I would love you just to talk a little bit more about, you know, with that unique, dynamic, beautiful cultural narrative, what role does the Medina play in all of that? From a cultural perspective, how does it serve as an anchor for Tunisian identity across the diaspora?
Leila Ben-Gacem
You know, in my work, I meet a lot of historians, and so they always, you know, I invite them to give lectures or meet other people who come here for to research the Medina. And I always tell them, you complicate life. The history of Tunisia is very easy: “They come. We don't like them, and then they become family.” That summarizes the history of Tunisia and the Medina. That's exactly what it did. So there were migrants, you know, from different parts of the Mediterranean Africa, everywhere, north, southeast. They come here because they are migrating. They were, you know, unsafe wherever they are, they come here. They don't like them in the beginning, but then the medina becomes their home, and they intermarriage with whoever is here. So, and that's, that's the, that's the summary of Tunisian history. So the medina has always been a home for people looking for a safe space. Some people in Tunisia don't think of it as a safe space, but it has always acted as a safe hideaway, safe new home for people running away from whatever they were not comfortable. And the history of the Medina is full of people have called at their home after, you know, second and third generation and still until today. So now it's internal migrants who come to the capital looking for jobs, who are nearby in downtown. So the Medina kind of embraced them and the community. They become a family and embrace each other and help each other from as they come and call it, make it the new home. And this had been the case throughout history. So this is why I always call my, tell, my historian friends, that ah you know...
Darren Isom
They're making it too hard? It reminds me as well. I mean, I'm from New Orleans, and I'm a seventh generation New Orleans native, and we have this wonderful dish in New Orleans called gumbo. It's sort of like a big soup dish, if you will. And what's interesting about the Gumbo is that it's the local dish, but every immigrant group that's come into the city has added something to the gumbo, right? (Ah, beautiful). And at some point, after Katrina, my dad, it was the first time we got a big Latino population in the city. And my dad, of course, being a true New Orleanian, was excited about a new immigrant group and was hoping they would add something good to the gumbo, right? So, that said, the cultures change, right? They evolve. And have you seen that happen here within the Medina?
Leila Ben-Gacem
Oh yes, for sure. For sure. I mean, as I was saying, I think we unconsciously create and delete new heritage every day. We choose what has meaning to keep and what doesn't, and you know, of course, through built Heritage Restoration, this is like a continuous theme in because the Medina is a UNESCO heritage site. So, you know, getting a permit to restore a building is a lengthy process. But then, where do you stop? You know, do you stop? 18th Century, 15th century or, I mean, at every century, something was added or removed.
Darren Isom
Yeah. And that's part of the culture. That's part of the place. Yes. (Laughter). I mean, to jump in there. I think it's interesting. We say all the time within American culture, this wonderful professor at Howard went to undergrad, and he would say that America has this wonderful story that all men were created equal. It's written right in the Constitution. You just spent our entire country's history deciding who is a man. Like who actually counts from an equal perspective? Be it women, be it Black people, be it immigrants, right? And I think part of that is about building this and, you know, building this idea of an ecosystem that matters in accounts, and you've talked already about the importance of youth in that ecosystem. You've also spent quite a bit of your time professionally building ecosystems where women are not just participants, but decision makers, so respected individuals in the thinking, within the narrative, within the story. What would it look like to design entire systems—economic, cultural, civic—that informed by the leadership wisdom and lived experiences of women.
Leila Ben-Gacem
Um, my own experience as elected city councilor and and now from my work in the Medina I you know, it's not just women, it's any human being. You, you if people need to develop their own self, if, if, if they, if they strongly believe deep inside that their own, the decisions related to their life is not in their hands. No matter what you do, it's so it really needs to come from within. And to come from within is another journey.
Darren Isom
That many are not ready for.
Leila Ben-Gacem
Thank you. Exactly. Yes, exactly. And, and I think with women, at least, from what I see from my team and the women I work with in the community, socio-economic empowerment is an important element, if, if you the economics of your life are not in your own hands, voting, deciding, well, children, any decisions is just it's not there. And I think, and this is where economic empowerment is extremely important, because that makes you feel… It gives you the socio-economic, not just economic. It gives you the mental liberty to think what is good for you from your own perspective. But that takes time, as I, as you said, not everybody's ready for that. In fact, the research we did in the Medina on the use of urban space. So we’re working with youth in the Medina to create a green, safe, gender-blind public space where women and girls can meet, interact, and create…become more aware of the impact of policies, of community, of what’s happening in school, how they can impact it, how they can make it better. It’s a journey. It’s a personal journey. And again, we need to be patient and give it time.
Darren Isom
And give it grace as well. I mean, can you just, I mean, it's obvious for all of us who engage in this work, but this idea of bringing women into the conversation, giving them public spaces, we all benefit from that. Can you talk about, what are the benefits of having more inclusive spaces, having bigger groups empowered? How do we all benefit from that?
Leila Ben-Gacem
I mean, the whole community becomes safer. And you know, if you have, if there's a community where you can have a festival at night, and girls can come as girlfriends and walk around, then the whole community is much, much safer. You know the so and this is, this is what we were striving for with my team, with my community, with all the micro businesses around us that we interact with, and they are and I mean, I've been more than 10 years now in the Medina since we started this business, and we see some every now and then more women led businesses that are starting. And this is a very positive sign for me. It makes me happy, and I see that they are comfortable to be part of the economic dynamic in the urban space, which is, I mean, maybe they are today. They're only doing it. Maybe a lady has started some, you know, fast food stall just because she wants you know, her children to continue going to school, but at some point she will realize that for for her children to move on, she needs to impact such a policy. She needs to create a public space. She needs to maybe work with us, to have, you know, new job for their children. So it's so it's...
Darren Isom
So it's just like you and your earlier story. You start one thing, and it reminds you that something else needs to be done. So it's that sense of agency, and I have just a couple more questions before we end our conversation. As we discussed so, much of your work is about creating possibility for others, especially women and youth. It speaks to a lot of things. It speaks to a broad understanding of the world and the importance that they play within that world. It speaks to a beautiful sense of empathy and possibility. Where do you draw your own sense of possibility and motivation from? Where does that come from?
Leila Ben-Gacem
Oh, my God. Where does it come from?
Darren Isom
As you shake your head, you don't know. Is it from your family? Is it from your community? Is it from your upbringing?
Leila Ben-Gacem
I think I'm the most positive person I know. So, where does it come from? I've always been optimistic. It might sound again, you're going to say, I'm humble, but it says it's just true. I don't have big dreams. I just go. I go in life one step at a time. You know, I see things. I think maybe I can make it better. Then I try. Sometimes I it works. Sometimes it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, I'm fine. I'm happy I tried. If it works, I try something else, push it a little bit further. Aand I think there's so much… I always make a joke. I always say, I I have 250 dreams. But if I do two, I'm happy. If I do 250, I'm happy.
Darren Isom
I mean, there's a role for dreamers right now. There's a role for optimists. And I want to end the conversation by asking you, from cultural preservation, specific engagement, you've shown us how powerful rooted, community driven work can be, the value of it, all the beauty of it, all the meaningfulness of it, all of all those 250 possibilities that you talk about, all the things that you see, what gives you the most hope right now and what possibilities are the most exciting for you as you think about the future? Give us something to dream about. Leila, please.
Leila Ben-Gacem
I always want to prove that social entrepreneurship is possible. It's possible. It makes business sense, because, because, not only in Tunisia but in many countries in the world, many cultures in the world, there's always, like, a clear distinction between profit-making entities and nonprofits, and social entrepreneurship, there is this something in the middle in which you can be profitable, but you also, you don't put financial profit ahead of, you know… (social goals) more than I mean financial profit is not more important than people, community and environment and I think that's really what I want to prove is, and people sometimes get confused. You know, why don't you start an NGO? No, I don't want to be an NGO business, yes, but you're a business. Why don't you keep the money in? No, but I want to give it to the community, yes, but it's not your job. It's the government. It's okay. I want to do it. It's just showing that it's possible, it's possible in the business sense. It's possible, in the impact sense, the social impact sense, and making it resilient. And it's also growing. It's a growing business. I hope.
Darren Isom
Yea it's not just powerful, it's important. It's needed, right? (Yes, yes) Leila, thank you. You mentioned earlier that you were an optimist, your optimism, I feel the optimism, and the world needs more of it right now. So thank you so much for this time. Thank you so much for sharing your space with us, and thank you so much for all the work that you lead. It’s eally important, really magical, really beautiful.
Leila Ben-Gacem
Thank you for putting Tunisia on your map. (Of course) I'm honored and humbled to have you in our space and come back home anytime. Thank you.
Darren Isom
Sounds lovely. Will do!
Epilogue: Darren Isom
My favorite part of my conversation with Leila happened after our recording when she invited us to Dar Ben-Gacem’s sister property Dar El Kahia, deeper in the Medina. There, we sat on the property’s rooftop quietly enjoying the expansive view and the ever-bustling Medina down below as she shared more about how Tunisia, there at the top of the continent had managed to shape and be shaped by all passing through—a beautifully rich story that continues to unfold. And at some point, as the conversation passed to St. Augustine and Tunisia and North Africa’s important role in the development of early Christianity, the evening call to prayer sounded, summoning the faithful to mosque and us to dinner in Dar Kahia’s dining room some floors below.
Hearing Leila so seamlessly weave history, humor, and hopefulness in her storytelling reminded me of one of my favorite quotes, from one of my favorite fiction writers, Ted Chiang. He writes: “Before a culture adopts the use of writing, when its knowledge is transmitted exclusively through oral means, it can very easily revise its history. It's not intentional, but it is inevitable; throughout the world, bards and griots have adapted their material to their audiences and thus gradually adjusted the past to suit the needs of the present. The idea that accounts of the past shouldn't change is a product of literate cultures reverence for the written word. Anthropologists will tell you that oral cultures understand the past differently; for them, their histories don't need to be accurate so much as they need to validate the community's understanding of itself. So it wouldn't be correct to say that their histories are unreliable; their histories do what they need to do.”
And although my conversation with Leila is presented as this season’s first conversation on the continent, it was actually recorded as the last, after some three weeks, six countries, and nine cities worth of travel. And so, with Leila demonstrating the power of the griot to make sense of a senseless world, offer hope in a seemingly, hopeless time, and remind of us of our agency in defining who we are and charting our path forward, we start where we ended – with a lesson in brilliant storytelling and bold optimism, the most perfect place to begin our journey.
Credits: Darren Isom
Once again, we’ve put some music with the magic, collecting the theme songs from our season’s guests and collaborators to create a Spotify playlist for our listeners to enjoy. Find it on Spotify under Dreaming in Color: The Continent. Thanks for listening to Dreaming in Color. A special shout-out to all the folks who make the magic happen. From Africa Insight Communications, our wonderful producers, Mudzithe Phiri and Tom Kirkwood, Production Coordinator, Goddec Orimba, Audio-visual Editor, Omamo Giko, Graphic Designer,
Ernest Chikuni and the amazing production crews on the ground in each country. A huge shout-out to my Bridgestone production colleagues, Cora Daniels, my ever-brilliant partner in good trouble, Elisabeth Makumbi, my Joburg-based season co-host, and of course, our fabulous creative director, Ami Diané, what a squad y'all! Be sure to rate, subscribe and review wherever you listen to podcasts. Catch you next time!
